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Chine walk (Read 15771 times)
nathan
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Re: Chine walk
Reply #15 - Sep 8th, 2013 at 12:21pm
 
I agree that there is truly no safe speed on a boat.  Please do not stop giving advise or stories.  That is the one of the reasons that I told you about the site so you could be here and tell us about your boats.  The person that ask the question may not take your advise But I can insure you that I and others listen and take your advise and keep them for my build.  I will be building my 23' chaparral and looking incite like yours, griswalds, and any other people that have worked on boats.  the biggest boat I have owned is 18 foot so this will be a new level for me.  I just did not agree with calling people out.  if they do not want to listen to the advise someone will and it is their loss.
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My Happy place is on a boat at the lake with my kids!!

current boats:
1983 chaparral 235 XLC (restoration)
1977 playcraft p24 pontoon (parents own now I am the mechanic)
1975 skeeter hawk (on hold)
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97FASTech
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Re: Chine walk
Reply #16 - Sep 8th, 2013 at 3:24pm
 
I get into chinewalk on smooth water, light on fuel,  WOT (68), no tabs, trim at 5.  Mine is very slight, but there, I know I have pushed it to the max.  Throttle comes back ever so slightly and trim goes back to 3.5 where it likes to be, high speed run alone, over now, back to cruise mode.  My next major upgrade is the steering, that will top off the FAS3Tech with what it should have come with standard.  Be safe out there everybody.  Thanks Jim your reads / posts are very informative.
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JC
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Re: Chine walk
Reply #17 - Sep 8th, 2013 at 3:43pm
 
Wow! This discussion turned ugly quick.

First off: I believe everything Jim tells me abt boats. I have no reason not to.
I did have him check the transom and stringers of the Fountain. That's an area I don't feel confident repairing myself.

As far buying the boat no matter what Jim said, that's not correct. If that was the case, I wouldn't have asked him to check it out to begin with. If he had found anything questionable with the structure I would have walked away. He said it looked good so I proceeded with the purchase. I figured anything else that came up I could handle myself.

I've been turning wrenches for 30+ years professionally. I do know a thing or two abt mechanical things.

I do remember Jim pointing out the port drive was loose where the trim cyls attach near transom. That was rectified within 5 mins of him mentioning it. I don't remember him checking the drives for side-to-side slop or him mentioning he found excessive side-to-side slop.

He did discuss ext steering with the prev owner while I was there. The prev owner said he discussed ext steering with Reggie when he bought the boat. They agreed the extra 75 lbs on the transom (on an already tail heavy boat) would do more harm than good for handling.

I feel with the added HP the boat has now, ext steering is a great idea. Its just a matter of time and money.

Griswald: I think your intentions are good, but I also believe you're taking things a bit too far too soon.
I do tend to think outside the box at times, that's who I am. If you knew me, I think you would realize that after exploring all the possibilities, the final decisions I make are usually in agreement with what the more experienced people suggest.

Any slop I find while I'm removing the drives will be repaired. It's as simple as that. I don't allow ego to override anything safety related. That's just plain stupid.

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Re: Chine walk
Reply #18 - Sep 8th, 2013 at 3:51pm
 
Good to hear JC!!  Keep on boating!
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mobileMERCman
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Re: Chine walk
Reply #19 - Sep 8th, 2013 at 4:28pm
 
I am not convinced you understand where the slop I am referring to is. I did not notice your pivots and bushings to be worn. I am specifically referring to the looseness in the steering. Move the drives left and right with your hand on the tie bar as if your were turning them with the steering wheel. That is the dangerous part. Understand for ever increment the drive swings free the boat wonders some exponential amount more side to side as it chine walks. The drives have a tremendous mechanical advantage working against the tiller arm. Think in terms of distance of the tiller arm and propeller from the steering axis. The tiller arm is about 5 inches long and the propeller is about 6 times greater a distance out the opposite direction.  The outside steering nearly matches that distance on the same side. Simply the boat working the long side of the see saw and the steering is trying to fight back from the opposite  very short side.

I call BS on the weight to benefit notion. It was a money thing then as it is now.

My persistence on this matter is all about your safety. Please understand its your well being at stake. Do not think for a minute you have control over your boat at speed and please do not listen to anyone that says it is ok or that you can trim it different and drive through it. I don't know how to explain it any better.


Best wishes.
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Jim
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Re: Chine walk
Reply #20 - Sep 8th, 2013 at 7:57pm
 
Griswald wrote on Sep 8th, 2013 at 9:25am:
Evan - this goes for you, too.  I know you want to go faster and have Bob working on some things to make that happen.  Be safe! 


Definitely priority number one. If there's any free advice out there on doing something differently I'd love to hear it. Advice is cheaper than broken parts or worse.
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JC
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Re: Chine walk
Reply #21 - Sep 8th, 2013 at 9:03pm
 
Jim, in regards to wear causing steering slop, I believe you're referring to the gimble ring to upper shaft fitment and the upper shaft to lever arm fitment.

Are the drives supposed to be tied together inside the boat if ext steering is installed? I've heard yes and no.

If no, then seems like I could save some $$ on gimble ring, shaft and lever arm and put it  towards the ext steering.

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Re: Chine walk
Reply #22 - Sep 9th, 2013 at 8:04am
 
Yes that is the slop I have been talking about.

Regarding tie bars. There are different opinions available. Here is the thing. Whether you have standard, add on, or full hydraulic the outside tie bar is the main one. An inside bar is not necessary. If one chooses to use an inside bar there needs to be a slot in one tiller arm pivot. The reason is two tie bars create a geometric bind when the drives are anything but perfectly matched in trim movement. It is back to the distances the bars exist from the steering axis. If the drives are misaligned at any point[  and it is inevitable the will move different at some point ] all the pivot bushings get side loaded and the tiller arms get loaded and they all wear out prematurely.

On the gimble rings the deciding factor as to if the need to be repaired or replaced is first the height the are. It is measured and the lower vertical pivot. I believe the spec is .001 to .025. Excess off .025 can cause a vibration, wear out the coupler and u joints and even damage the drive.  Gimbles tend to drop for a couple reasons. First the steering slop accelerates wear specifically where the ring hangs on the upper swivel shaft,  second general use, and finally corrosion. The steel shaft against aluminum. I paint that joint with perfect seal when ever I assemble new parts. Understand  that joint carries allow the weight everything that turns. The ring bell housing and drive.

The reality is the gimbles need to be right, add on steering does not make up for worn parts and two tie bars will ruin new parts. I find the experts that race sites that know better or are misinformed and add two tie bars are the same guys breaking bell housings and stripping out hinge pins

Finally understand the tiller and gimble need to be right for add on steering. The system operates off the reference the tiller arm provides. Loose tiller arm causes the hydraulics to shutter.

If you choose to confirm this info there are only two people to ask Latham or IMCO
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Re: Chine walk
Reply #23 - Sep 9th, 2013 at 8:27am
 
I would also like to mention you should see what generation bell housings you have. Early Bravo had hinge pins screwing into the bellhousing. A washer was added sometime around '90. You can see the two offered on parts break downs. You want the ones with washers. The pin bottoms against the washer and it effectively holds the pin on its axis and they last much longer then those with out.

Nathan like stories here is one about this subject. In '90 a friend of mine had a '88 30 Velocity. That boat ate gimbles. 3 sets in one year.

to be continued later...
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Jim
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nathan
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Re: Chine walk
Reply #24 - Sep 9th, 2013 at 12:16pm
 
you have my attention.
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My Happy place is on a boat at the lake with my kids!!

current boats:
1983 chaparral 235 XLC (restoration)
1977 playcraft p24 pontoon (parents own now I am the mechanic)
1975 skeeter hawk (on hold)
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Re: Chine walk
Reply #25 - Sep 9th, 2013 at 12:53pm
 
OK Nathan, I am taking a break in front of a fan. Before I start that story I want to provide a little back ground. My first shop was at my friends Marina where many of the Velocitys he sold were dry stacked. It was on the end of the Severn River off the Chesapeake. I had run countless 22's with 260's, 454 Magnums, [ 330 and Alphas  ] 320 efi's, some with 200's and he raced one with twin 200's. The 30's had a number of power options too. I had spent many hours in one with warmed up 400 and #2 speed masters, My buddy Ronnie bought a new 30 with 330's and TRS. He took delivery in Florida drove it home to Annapolis from FLorida. He had 125 hrs on it the first month. When I winterized it the first year it had 325 hours on it. He ran it everywhere wide open. It was often painful to be a passenger cause he leaver let off. At 700 hours I forget when exactly he broke a crank and it was covered under warranty. A 30 is still one of the funnest boats I have ever spent time in.

Now Greg and Jeff bought there boat the Red 1988 30 new. It was the third boat they owned that I took care of. After the first to years they had pretty much run it until it stopped and it was in need of numerous repairs. Greg and I had become close friends and the summer of '90 he worked for me. We had come to an agreement I would fix everything on his boat with his help, He and his brother would pay for all materials, The three of us would split the lift slip cost and I could use it like my own.

Let me say in 1990 gas was 140 a gallon at the marina and the boat held 150 gallons. We went out every weekend. Gregs procedure was to invite his friends usually 6 plus the two of us, we had even perfected a formation in the cockpit to carry 10. A typical Saturday morning would be me delivering the boats of the week while Greg prepped the boat and met his friends at the gas dock. Each person had to have money to pitch in for fuel every stop. 20 each would usually fill the boat. I would show up and we would
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Re: Chine walk
Reply #26 - Sep 9th, 2013 at 1:04pm
 
Leave. We would run 8 miles out the river and about an hour in any number of directions up or down the bay. Greg would drive all day I would be the night time Navigator. If the boat was on plane it was running 4500, his cruise speed. it would turn 5000 with 25 Mirages at 70. He would run it so hard and long that when we stopped and some one had to pee they discovered the drives were to hot to stand on. We literally ran it so hard it would wear the belts out. Most days we would fill it up 3 times. First in the morning, again late after noon and again at a friends restaurant were I was allowed to pump my own gas until the restaurant closed around 11 pm. Most Saturdays would end with last call down town and a 20 mile ride home to the slip.

Sunday Morning would start the same. Red Eyes Dock bar had a Bikini contest every Sunday. We would go straight there 55 miles away get fuel and assume our spot nest to the stage. When the contest was over around 3 we would press on.

We never did get around to fixing the gas gauge or bilge pump. The pump was out of reach under the engine and was beatin to pieces long before. Never ran out of gas. The boat went to OC MD and Point Pleasant NJ that year. Each has its own story. No hour meter but I would guess it saw 3 or 500 hours that summer.

To date still one of my most treasured times.
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Re: Chine walk
Reply #27 - Sep 9th, 2013 at 4:07pm
 
Back to the rings. I learned a lot about gimbles, hinge pins and tie bars that year. I learned it all first hand. One had already failed and was fixed under warranty the year before. That time the drive came off it ended up on the trim tab held on by trim hoses and indicator cables. The first round the summer of '90 We drilled the access holes and tightened the gimbles and steering arms. The hinge pins were loose and the holes wobbled some. We bushed the rings. Heli coiled one of the threads in the bell housing and loctited it all back together. That lasted about 2 or 3 weekends. The next round it got new bellhousing and 1 ring. At that time I realized the tie bars may be contributing to the problem. The indicater cables were changed and fine adjusted and  Removed the inner tie bar.  That lasted a month or so until when I spun it out thru my friend Jay out of the boat. That broke both of the new bellhousings and both gimble rings. I was lucky they stayed on the boat. Had to idle back over an hour.  The parts were on National back order. We found parts after a day on the phone and had them shipped in next day from all over the country. The boat never missed a weekend. Luckily nobody got seriously hurt.

Some time early 90's mercury upgraded the bellhousings and added the washers I mentioned. They also eventually added the HP transom to the line up with the ssm style hinge pins. They are pretty tough. The still will break if the boat is spun out.

Since then I have serviced countess gimble rings included Griwswalds a few seasons ago.

It is my opinion any boat faster then 70 MUST have external steering. Most boats now comes with external steering standard.

I sent my entire outside steering back to Latham to be reconditioned, re chromed, new plates and re fit with new clevises. I now have no rod ends. I will be sporting a new tie bar too. Nearly 3000 dollars later.
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Jim
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nathan
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Re: Chine walk
Reply #28 - Sep 9th, 2013 at 4:09pm
 
that is the kind of summer weekend I dream of. great story
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My Happy place is on a boat at the lake with my kids!!

current boats:
1983 chaparral 235 XLC (restoration)
1977 playcraft p24 pontoon (parents own now I am the mechanic)
1975 skeeter hawk (on hold)
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JC
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Re: Chine walk
Reply #29 - Sep 9th, 2013 at 4:45pm
 
Jim; Thx for the info on the gimble ring specs. I didn't think abt the ext steering needing  feedback. Are the gimble rings, upper shaft and lever arm normally replaced as a set?

What are your thoughts abt cutting out a section of the gimble housing out to access the nut on the upper shaft? My first impression is not to do it, but looks like a lot of guys do. Pulling the eng and transom plate appears to be the only other way.

I checked the side-to-side play today and looks like I have abt 1" of slop measured at the prop.
I assume the slop can be checked with power steering sys depressurized.

BTW, great story. I enjoy reading those too.
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