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Chine walk (Read 15770 times)
JC
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Chine walk
Sep 6th, 2013 at 10:58pm
 
I was going for my first WFO run last Friday. 

Had drives set to "5" and tabs at "2" ( I have the rubber bumpers that prevent raising up tabs past "2"). Water was almost glass, full fuel and just me in boat. At abt 76mph, I got into some serious chine walk.
Boat went from rub-rail to rub-rail 4 times in abt 1 sec. On the 4th oscillation it felt like the boat came out of the water and turned abt 20 degs to the right. Shocked

One of the experienced Fountain guys I know said to run the tabs at 3 at high speed. I haven't had a chance to try that yet.

I've read that you can prevent it by steering opposite of the oscillation (i.e. boat leans left, you steer right), basically balancing the boat on the pad. Not sure I can steer that fast accurately.

Anyone here experience chine walk at high speed?

If you can steer thru it, will it settle down after you reach a certain speed?

Will ext steering stop it or just dampen it some?
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mobileMERCman
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Re: Chine walk
Reply #1 - Sep 7th, 2013 at 8:25am
 
Remember when I suggested you add external steering to your short list? Your gimbles are whooped. Stand behind your boat and move drives side to side. That is where your problem is. If you try to drive through it with your steering the way it is you WILL get hurt.
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nathan
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Re: Chine walk
Reply #2 - Sep 7th, 2013 at 8:58am
 
I had always been told that trim and tabs can help.  you have to find the happy settings
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My Happy place is on a boat at the lake with my kids!!

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mobileMERCman
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Re: Chine walk
Reply #3 - Sep 7th, 2013 at 9:00am
 
To repair it properly you should repair the gimbles and add external steering. There is a dimension for the height of the gimble. As they loosen the fall. As a result u joints begin to operate in a somewhat kinked mode because the yoke in the coupler is no longer in line with the input to the drive. Once the gimbles are in there proper location add external steering.

With steering your boat will feel entirely different. It will track straight across chop and wakes. The boat will not wonder as it does now. Any chine walk that may develop at that point you can learn to balance and drive through.

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Jim
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Re: Chine walk
Reply #4 - Sep 7th, 2013 at 11:05am
 
Once you get external steering you will wonder how you ever owned your boat without it. It really adds a ton of confidence to your boat at speed and just feels so much more smooth.
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JC
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Re: Chine walk
Reply #5 - Sep 7th, 2013 at 12:11pm
 
Going thru the drive mounts was already on the list for winter projects. If I lift up on port drive I get a little bit of play. Starboard drive is tight.

I'll be replacing all the bushings when I dig into it.
Hopefully I can spring for the ext steering. May be a half and half sys for a while. We'll see.
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Re: Chine walk
Reply #6 - Sep 7th, 2013 at 2:37pm
 
Add a couple gimble rings, a swivel shaft and tiller arm or two to your list. The part that is causing the wonder and chine walk is the free swing side to side when you grab the outside tie  bar. It is primarily where the upper swivel shaft meets the ring.

You are lucky when it went 20 degrees to the right it didn't throw you on the floor or out of the boat.

Those pucks in the trim tabs restricting the up limit need to stay.

Add on steering will do what you need to.  Full hydraulic is nice but costs twice as much. The hole in the dash is different and you will likely end up replacing the dash panel too. Don't waste your time considering any steering stabilizers like side winders. Complete waste of money.

Be careful in the mean time.
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Re: Chine walk
Reply #7 - Sep 7th, 2013 at 3:08pm
 
I have add on steering on the Nordic (half) and it is great. Manners around the doc are better, at speed it is almost a set and forget type thing. And a big polished hydraulic arm on the back just looks good too.
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Griswald
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Re: Chine walk
Reply #8 - Sep 8th, 2013 at 9:13am
 
I would take Jim's advice and leave ego at the coat check.
Here, you have suggestions from a man who has been working on Merc products for over 30yrs, rigged and drove Fountain's own race boats at the factory in the 90s and early 2000s, has obtained kilo-record speeds runs and a national championship in offshore racing.  He knows what he's talking about and anyone who thinks his words carry no merit is acting foolish.  Your life is in your hands at boat speeds of 70+mph and it's just common sense to let a professional tackle a repair like this.  I'm a decent mechanic and do most of my maintenance and repairs myself.  However, I can tell you that these repairs are not a job for the average guy and there are numerous specialized tools from Merc that are needed to do it right.  When he says both of your gimbles are done, I would take that with a grain of salt, get them fixed and fixed right before something bad happens. 

One a second note; running fast on glass water is a recipe for disaster in the smaller Fountains. Most likely, boats from other manufacturers as well.  Mine chine walks above 70 too and once it gets out of shape I'm merely a passenger at that point.
I've found there are two options when this happens:
1. it will settle down enough for you to get it back under control. 
2.  it won't and something bad is about to happen.
I've learned not to run it that fast when conditions are flat. The more chop under the boat the better it will handle and as Jim said, you can learn to drive through it. I've found myself deep in #1 a couple times and don't EVER want to be there again. I got lucky, plain and simple.  I've spent quite a few hours on a boat with Jim and he's taught me more than I would ever have learned on my own.  His advice is immeasurable.  There is so much more to driving fast boats than pushing the sticks forward and trimming them up. 
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Re: Chine walk
Reply #9 - Sep 8th, 2013 at 9:25am
 
JC - I don't know you or your background but noticed you have come on ABF and OSO asking for advice several times only to have already made your mind up on the topics you seek advice on.  In my opinion....and it's just that, an opinion, I would pay a bit more attention to the folks who are offering the advice.  I'm a know-it-all myself and over the years have learned that most of these folks know what they're talking about.  If your 29 is your first performance boat and you intend to run it like it should be, I would open up a little to these words of wisdom.  I've done it myself and can tell you that it has paid off in spades more than I probably realize.

Evan - this goes for you, too.  I know you want to go faster and have Bob working on some things to make that happen.  Be safe! 

All I can offer both of you, and anyone else for that matter, is advice from my own personal experiences.  I've been boating since I was 6yrs old and thought I was a good driver and captain.  I thought I was king-shit when I got my first, fast boat.  Consequently, I crashed it 2wks after I bought it because I was being stupid.  I don't wish that experience on anyone and certainly don't want to see anyone get hurt.  Whether I know you, or not.  I can also tell you that boater safety courses and general rules-of-the-road instruction can be invaluable. Especially, on these small lakes when there are so many others who shouldn't even be allowed to step on a boat let alone pilot one.  Going fast takes experience and carries responsibility.  If you blink, something bad can happen.

I apologize for the long reply and if anyone is offended by my words.  I want everyone to boat smart and boat safe.
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nathan
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Re: Chine walk
Reply #10 - Sep 8th, 2013 at 9:58am
 
Griswald I believe that you are coming on this forum with a uninformed opinion.  I too have been boating since I was six and even though I have never owned a "fast" boat I have had several and never crashed a boat.  I recommended this forum to Jim when we were both on Austin bass fishing.  I also have meet Evan several times and been around here for a while.  I know that Evan listens to people when they give him suggestions especially when it comes to someone of jims caliber.  As for JC he seems a lot like me.  I will listen to everyone's option and in the end it depends on what I can afford to do.  I would not have the funds to add the external steering to a boat so I would have to look for a less costly upgrade.  I believe that you are off base on your "opinion".  I did not read in any of JC's post that he was not going to look into what Jim said.
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My Happy place is on a boat at the lake with my kids!!

current boats:
1983 chaparral 235 XLC (restoration)
1977 playcraft p24 pontoon (parents own now I am the mechanic)
1975 skeeter hawk (on hold)
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Griswald
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Re: Chine walk
Reply #11 - Sep 8th, 2013 at 10:26am
 
I respect your reply Nathan but disagree with your comment.  Please re-read my post and note my humility expressed no less than three times.  You have previously posted that you would never operate a boat at more than 50mph so I don't really understand why you have a comment on a thread about chine walk, what could be causing it and what repairs it takes to help mitigate.  I will not get into a pissing match on the interweb.  I've also learned over the years that is an exercise in futility.  You folks have a good day and safe boating to you all.
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Re: Chine walk
Reply #12 - Sep 8th, 2013 at 10:53am
 
My comments come from research and talking to people that own the boats.  I have been on fast boats and Have piloted them at speeds above 60 mph.  I have said that I would not own one because my family would never go on one.  my wife and daughters do not like speed on the water.

my comment come from your direct call out of JC and Evan like you know exactly how they think or operate.  I would say ask the people first before you call them out on a public forum.   

Hope all have a Great weekend and rest of your season.  JC good luck on your impending repairs.  Evan I hope your sunny is back together soon and problem free.  Jim Thank you for all the advise you give from our vast knowledge.  Griswald thank you for your knowledge as well.  happy boating Nathan!
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My Happy place is on a boat at the lake with my kids!!

current boats:
1983 chaparral 235 XLC (restoration)
1977 playcraft p24 pontoon (parents own now I am the mechanic)
1975 skeeter hawk (on hold)
nathanb42  
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mobileMERCman
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Re: Chine walk
Reply #13 - Sep 8th, 2013 at 11:39am
 
Nathan, I remember you made me aware of this site. I would like to share a few thoughts. Boats that go 50 or 60 mph or more are a completely different than boats that don't. That misconception, that a lifetime of boating experience means anything when you start going fast DOES hurt and kill numerous people every year. Just this weekend there was another tragedy. Two people were killed  from operator error. IMO most people buy boats they have no idea how to operate properly. I was in the same boat in 1984 when I crashed my first fast boat. I have learned many hard lessons over the years.

I am not hear to argue or sell work. At first I offered assistance by answering questions. I do very little of that anymore. Lessons learned on the internet are just hear say.  I find few opinions carry any merit. In this case I spoke up because IMO a life or death subject was opened.

I am not passing judgement on JC. We have only briefly met when he asked my to look at the Fountain he bought. I can say I agree with Clark and his interpretation of his questions. I agree because I experienced the same. His mind was made up he was buying the boat and didn't care what comments I had about it. He only wanted me to look at one aspect of the boat. I pointed out the steering and he disregarded it as irrelevant. 

I was easy on him in my last post. From what he described and the question he asked he had NO idea he was a whisper away from spinning it out, ripping the drives off the back and sinking the boat. I had to speak up. Had some " experienced operator" share some baseless info and he tried it again and got hurt or worse I would feel bad about not speaking up.   

I could go on and on a number of different directions here but let me share just one of my 'Hard lessons". In 1994, I share the date because it was 20 years ago and I have never been hurt so bad in a boat. I raced a 63 MPH boat like I could not get hurt. It was not a matter of ability. It was a matter of ignorance.
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Jim
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Re: Chine walk
Reply #14 - Sep 8th, 2013 at 11:52am
 
I had been much faster, had spent many hours going faster and refused to even acknowledge I could get hurt at 60 mph. We were leading the race and before I could blink, flinch or say WTF it was over. My buddy was in the water. Nothing new. The deck was loose on the boat down the entire starboard side, again nothing new. The seat I was sitting in was torn from the floor. No big deal.

When I left the emergency room I had 9 broken ribs. There was a different incident on the race course that day and he wasn't as lucky. I could just as easily passed away that day.

DON'T think for a minute 50 or 60 miles an hour is a safe speed. Its not. Water is unforgiving and it can get you with the boat stopped.

I don't care what argument or justification anybody might have on the subject of steering. It is a critical function and should bee addressed accordingly.

If  you chose to dismiss this post I don't care. I have said my piece.
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Jim
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